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#1 g.O.D

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Posted 23 March 2012 - 05:50 PM

This was posted in [MC]-Forums, thought it would be
good to bring this to others attention.
http://www.renz0r.co...28634#post28634

IMO it should be done, but don't be too hasty to get on
it before you'v experienced the mods
to be completed in normal Renegade

p.s if your an [MC]-member then please post your reply
in that link, I don't want to be seen high-jacking his thread xD

Edited by g.O.D, 23 March 2012 - 06:03 PM.

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Originally posted by Reckneya
Well let me tell you, I will miss them. I will miss them like I miss toothpain when I am trying to eat pussy.
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#2 dubstar

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 01:49 PM

Unfortunately im still waiting to play the game :( specs wise my comp is below the minimum required.

g.O.D, I didn't realise I posted in the public section of my clans home page lol never mind.
Have you yourself played the standalone single player? If so did you enjoy it?

To add to that I have just noticed that the official website for RenegadeX is not working. If you havn't played it then you can download RenegadeX Black Dawn here
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#3 Reckneya

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 02:00 PM

The problem with RenX is the AI. It's even less capable then the normal Renegade AI. The RenX team has put all time in the looks and very little time in the AI (or at least by far not enough). It looks fucking awesome though, but a coop mod at this point would be absolutely terrible. Not just because of the AI, but also because, sadly, they seem to suffer from a low player base. RenX doesn't get anywhere near the amount of players it deserves. Sadly that means, the effort put into this at this point could potentially be a waste of time. We've seen this with Reborn, and I am sure you can think of some recent mods that look great, but probably are going to sink in the dock before sailing the open sea. I hope the AI is something they will improve, and that RenX is going to get a large steady player base. If that is the case then go ahead. Find a programmer (you'll need at least 1, it's the UNREAL engine so..) and make the Mod. I am sure it would become very cool.
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#4 dubstar

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 02:14 PM

I was actually going to ask whether the bots were more tactical as its coming from an upto date engine so when I saw your reply I thought wow reck can read minds lmao.

Well there goes the dream of an update to renegade's coop mods :( unless someone takes the time to explore the possibilities, If I could I would.
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#5 Reckneya

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Posted 24 March 2012 - 06:41 PM

Don't give up the dream. It's my opinion that now is not the time to realize this dream, but the dream is valid. Maybe if you can find a dedicated programmer they can program the AI for you, or maybe the RenX team is working on making a challenging AI already, or plan to do so in the future. The player base is something not in our control. That's the only part that really worries me for the future.
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[23:34:11] [-SoH-]Osiris killed AC-C4Smoke (GDI Minigunner/Auto Rifle vs Nod Minigunner)
[23:34:24] AC-C4Smoke: soh using RGH hax with Armor hax
[23:34:28] AC-C4Smoke: noob server
[23:34:32] Player AC-C4Smoke left the game


#6 SarahDX

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 01:45 AM

I've played Renegade X blackdawn..
The game itself looks good, gameplay is available too.. in some way..( imo ) ....
....but what I have seen there didn't entirely convince me to be the CnC Renegade I know. :3
I surely hope that they will improve it for the better and of course, a CooP mod/mode shouldn't be lacking.
AI bots are, as Reckneya said, most likely not the problem, take a programmer and they'll do it. The player base is very important!, although I thought that Renegade X was having a lot of followers/players/etc according to it's score/blablabla on moddb :3

However, in my opinion:
What I have seen of Blackdawn didn't completely tell me: "This is Command and Conquer: Renegade X! the fan made successor of the original Command and Conquer Renegade!" and I rather found some elements that did tell me so.. while I found some elements that rather seemed like a wrapping to me =\
Blackdawn is Blackdawn, the Multiplayer mode is probably what counts most for Renegade X and I believe that with the standalone Multiplayer of the Renegade X, there could be alot of players be gathering up there to get it/play it. :3
Also, I do believe they will improve it for good and that it will later on be like the new generation CnC Renegade.
( if not.... well that's very unfortunate.. like, still a good game but just not Renegade. xD )

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#7 dubstar

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 08:54 AM

If the servers exist then I think players will flock once the multiplayer version is released, launch day for the single player on the torrent download alone were a few thousand people and the direct links overwhelmed.

So there is a lot of interest out there for RenegadeX.

I suppose most people didn't play previously because the multiplayer version was a mod for the unreal game and you needed a fully legit copy of Unreal Tournament 3.

As a free standalone game it will reach a wider audience guaranteed.
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#8 g.O.D

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 09:23 PM

Yes Ive got it as I downloaded it last month from a Torrent site xD
as I did look around and do a little research for my self,
but have yet to install it LOLz, pretty much what I would of said has
been said above by Reck and SarahDX.

Their is always somebody out their that would fit the criteria of co-op moding it
but they've yet to realize that themselves.

The more we talk about it then their realization will hit them to inspire into it ;-)


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Originally posted by Reckneya
Well let me tell you, I will miss them. I will miss them like I miss toothpain when I am trying to eat pussy.
Face your Fears Live your Dreams!

#9 dubstar

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 10:25 PM

As SarahDX said "still a good game but just not Renegade"

true

You have to try and think outside of the box, its a game made to replicate renegade's unique online game modes & objectives, think of black dawn as advertisement to get people interested until the release of the multiplayer version, it will never be renegade because its engine is far more superior and easily modded compared to the w3d engine that we are used to, comparing it to renegade tbh will not sit well with any hardcore renegade fan, so think of it as a game, thats going to be free and have the same addictive gameplay/objectives & genre of renegade. I can honestly say with servers available from the start (probably storm, no punn intended) this will become as big if not bigger than lots of other freeware titles such as assault cube.

Exodus could benefit if they were to reopen the RenegadeX server from the launch of the standalone multiplayer version, may take a few weeks but the future of such a game can be big if given the chance, without bots there will still be many modes like DM & Sniper + some that assault cube does not offer like AOW etc.. + all the buildings, vehicles and infantry we know from renegade are there.

Renegade is an excellent game, I can imagine myself playing it for a few years to come and I will treat RenegadeX as my assault cube :)


Slightly off topic lol but that's how it goes. haha
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#10 Reckneya

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:34 AM

Slightly off topic lol but that's how it goes. haha

That might be, but I took some notes though ;)
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[23:34:11] [-SoH-]Osiris killed AC-C4Smoke (GDI Minigunner/Auto Rifle vs Nod Minigunner)
[23:34:24] AC-C4Smoke: soh using RGH hax with Armor hax
[23:34:28] AC-C4Smoke: noob server
[23:34:32] Player AC-C4Smoke left the game


#11 Reaver11

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 11:59 AM

AI bots are, as Reckneya said, most likely not the problem, take a programmer and they'll do it.


Not to be a mean person but they are not jumping for that kind of work.
AI coding isn't easy at all it is one of the hardest things to create unless you want cannon fodder AI like in Blackdawn.

In UDK epic hasn't released their AI code as far as I'm aware so you are really at ground level.
(There are plans for that but don't get your hopes up)


Gamedevelopment is something you need to think through thoroughly.
1: Work out your idea/Theme make a development plan (What buildings, type of missions, weapons, characters etc)
2: What are your game constructs (Example: enterable vehicles, Max player number of 4, veteran system, crazy stuff like night vision)
3: Type of maps (Example: vast open fields or closed quarters)

Now some more question engine related
4: How many physical characters are in a battle scene each time (5? 20? 100?)
5: How many vehicles in each scene
6: Destructible terrain
7: Swimming option
8: API / control setup / Movement

This is just a quick list of questions I thought of while writing this post.
Game engines mostly are tweaked to serve a special role for the type of games that a developer wants to run on it.
Questions like -> "3: Type of maps" are very relevant due to the amount of polygons you can spend on terrain / How much engine load.

You really need a worked out idea before you select an engine.
Especially on the subject of AI.
Renegade X might not even be suited for your purposes.

First write out your idea, if you want I can review it and pose very annoying questions ;)
Thinking out your idea is the most important step!!!

That will save you tons of time in making your idea.
Don’t be discouraged go and try to work on your idea!
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#12 SarahDX

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 12:16 PM

What you just said, were things I already was aware of. :P

However, it is nice of you to say that, Reaver, but I suppose you didn't get my point there. xD
What I was intending to say with that was, that with a programmer or most likely more programmers, whatever, you'd get some AI done, regardless if basic or not and of the difficulty, this is more a time and knowledge matter in this case whatsoever.
The thing I was intending to point out is that you can get it done with the right conditions ( having a/multiple programmer/s ) unlike the player base..

.... It looks fucking awesome though, but a coop mod at this point would be absolutely terrible. Not just because of the AI, but also because, sadly, they seem to suffer from a low player base. ....

..which a/multiple programmer/s can't make up. :3

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#13 dubstar

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 02:07 PM

Basic AI for coop should look something like this,

1. collisions, bots need to know what obsticles and terrain surround them.
2. waypoints, every bot needs to find you in the best possible way.
3. paths, are bots stationary or patrolling an area.
4. triggers, do the bots react on movement, sound or event.
5. reaction, how quick will they react once they are triggered.
6. accuracy, speaks for itself.

The AI for the coop we play atm isn't really advancing over what is above, the bots follow paths and shoot at you and most of the above is already included with Black Dawn.

For a coop mod it would be a good idea to have certain things update automatically depending on how many people are in game, If there is one player in game then the reaction speed and accuracy would be less than if there were ten people in game, etc..

Remember RenegadeX's standalone multiplayer is going to be a free game to download and play, easily moddable with its own programming language & 3D editing tools. The presets for infantry and vehicles will be released with it + I expect someone will release the perfect AI eventually, it took 4 years after renegade's release for someone to come up with a coop mod and people are still modding today.
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#14 Reaver11

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Posted 26 March 2012 - 04:00 PM

Basic AI for coop should look something like this,

1. collisions, bots need to know what obsticles and terrain surround them.
2. waypoints, every bot needs to find you in the best possible way.
3. paths, are bots stationary or patrolling an area.
4. triggers, do the bots react on movement, sound or event.
5. reaction, how quick will they react once they are triggered.
6. accuracy, speaks for itself.


This is what you need!
A list / points that you want to achieve in your project.
How basic points like these seem to be you need consensus and know what you want.

For AI matters:


Possibly that this AI can do what you need, visit UDK forums for more.
At least according to your list it should be.
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#15 dubstar

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 07:51 AM

After watching the video I decided to look up AI in UDK and came across Spartacus & the creators Bot Overview
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#16 dubstar

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Posted 27 March 2012 - 10:53 AM

Interested in scripting the UDK engine? UDK does not have a scripting Enviroment/IDE but there is a open source project available to download & use called Unreal Script IDE
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#17 TNaismith

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 05:35 AM

My goodness, a few days from last viewing this topic and it's spiked a lot. My first reply was back on the [MC] forums where Dubstar started it, but since then he's recommended to take the discussion to here, which I'll do so gladly. =)

About your clan-tags questions Dubstar from the [MC] Forums:

I had a similar problem with the AOW unreal tournament 3 modded version before the release of Black Dawn where my comp would hang then crash, as for the standalone single player campaign I could load into game but my computer struggled to handle even at low settings outputting a very unplayable framerate.

Main reason for my asking, I Would like to know if any of my fellow clan members would object to me wearing my tags in RenegadeX if a coop mod were to be released?


If there is co-op there, and you are playing on a co-op server mostly, then the tags would be a welcome thing for me to know fellow members are wearing there. If people are mostly playing the competitive player vs player servers though... then I would personally rather see members not advertising [MC] tags there, no matter how much teamplay/co-operation that competitive player vs player servers/modes can offer, it still isn't true co-op gameplay (human vs AI bots only). However, just my opinion. =) Zorid is the leader of [Mission Co-op] clan and can clarify the matter in time. ^^


As for the actual subject of playing RenegadeX, here is what my reply was to Dubstar on the [MC] Forums:

I did try playing Renegade-X a few weeks ago. Got into the menu screen, but any gameplay crashes my PC. Not looking like I can run the game, let alone consider exploring any personal co-op modding/mapping for it.

If I could in the future, you'll definitely see me there if co-op is a real good possibility.



#18 dubstar

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 07:20 AM

It has gone slightly off topic lol. My main interest was to see if [MC] tags can be worn in other online co-op games, I have occasionally joined other renegade server's with my [MC] tags but prefer not to when its PvP as they are like you say not human vs AI.

I have only had the luxury of seeing RenegadeX Black Dawn in operation on youtube and from what I have seen it is still lacking certain things like facial animation + The way they run looks terrible like toy soldiers wobbling side to side lol and then theres extra computer power people will need to play compared to renegade which runs on just about anything.

Never the less I am looking forward to playing the game after upgrading my computer.
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#19 TNaismith

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Posted 28 March 2012 - 11:40 PM

I actually did get to see the first cutscenes in the first mission, my PC only 100% system crashed once the actual game tried to load the real mission/terrain. As such, I got to witness what many years of fan-modded efforts had led to with the release of this singleplayer component.

I will say that the work they did is above and beyond what most of us have lived to define as 'fan' work. Keep in mind these guys started off, and to some extent, still are just normal fans/players of the original C&C: Renegade, and that these guys were not hired by any professional or big-name corporations to produce Renegade-X. They've built up their own group, have crafted their own new models, artwork, concept art, textures, scripting and even programming -- only using the 2002 Renegade as an inspiration, as well as whatever scripts/programming/resources the Unreal Engine 3 provides. They have their own website that looks real professional, and the way you see them give out updates and development news is as close to professional as a fan-based project can get.

All of the above taken into consideration, the cutscenes from the first mission were really amazing. If you thought Renegade and the singleplayer cutscenes you saw many years ago couldn't ever look better or re-imagined, then you've got to see what they've done for the first singleplayer mission cutscene. You'll never believe that Renegade, or the C&C lore, could look so detailed and more in-depth than anything you can remember. The technology those guys used to make Renegade-X gave them at least one strong benefit -- and that is the ability to re-create cutscenes that keep to the spirit of Renegade and the C&C universe that the timeline is set to. If these guys eventually, or ever, get to making a full length campaign or story-mode, complete with cutscenes and detailed missions/NPCs/characters/voice/sound, it will draw you in the same way Renegade first gave you a first look at the world of Tiberium Dawn from the eyes of a soldier, not an RTS commander. Most likely it will do better and more.

One thing that stood out quickly during the cutscenes though, was the way characters in the cutscenes talked, to be specific, their actual voices. What the Renegade-X team did was re-use short audio voice clips that shipped with the 2002 release of C&C: Renegade, clips of Havoc saying "Hehehe." or "What are we waiting for? Lets get movin'!" Whenever these old audio clips were used, it was really quite good, the timing was often decent enough, and they even got the mouths to match... sometimes. For the other cutscene voice-acting, they have actual audio recorded by (what I presume) actual people/volunteers. And they didn't do a half-bad job the voice-acting, the effort there is a positive testament to how much good effort Renegade-X was, and is, willing to put into this project. As you can guess though, using those old pre-recorded audio clips from 2002 in a Renegade-X made some of the cutscene conversations... well, seem off-kilter. Your brain is telling you that something about the scene doesn't seem normal, or logical -- your hearing voice clips from a 2002 game, while in the same second, your hearing new voice clips coming from the same character's mouth, but with a different person's voice.

Still loved what I saw. If the game continues to grow or to attract enough attention, I've got every hope that they'll get the attention, resources, and support to improve things that don't seem perfect now, and to give Renegade-X a solid foundation for long-term community activity, modding, mapping, and growth.

Of course, got my fingers crossed that solid development for fan-modding/mapping will allow for co-operative (Human vs AI only) maps/gameplay to be brought over there. It being a free game will be a positive long-term boon that the 2002 C&C: Renegade doesn't have.


#20 dubstar

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 10:26 AM

I found these on youtube

Intro Movie
]

You can clearly see the level of detail from the totem team.

Gameplay Footage
]

Stunning, Coop looking like this would be awesome.
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