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#1 tipperDES

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 04:29 PM

Hello, I'm tipper|DES|
I've been playing AssaultCube from version 0.91. Thats years if you know nothing about the game ;)
I'm in the DES clan. I'm on the clan council. I am also an admin for the ac branch of ESL. I'm a member of the ac server share as admin.

I've been looking around your forums and i've got a few comments, some of which i doubt you will like.
You describe ac as "like counterstrike". It isn't, and we put in a lot of effort trying to make sure it never gets like counterstrike.
ac is a fast, no camp, team orientated game. The last thing ac needs is more campers with sniper rifles who haven't got a clue how to play. If thats your thing, go pick another game.
If you want your project to be accepted in to the game and community, then you need to get to know the game and community. Posting all your comments about ac here just wont get seen by the people who have the power to do anything about your complaints, unless you only intend to play on Exodus servers.

ac has recently had some problems with a similar project with a similar set up. Basically the net result was clan banned from forum, servers banned from master server. We are a bit touchy about these kind of projects atm ;)

You have posted what is basicaly an add for admins for your ac servers. Exactly how do you decide who is and who isn't suitable? ac needs competant admins who know the game, it's players and are well known in the community. I dont think you have that atm.
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#2 Daft

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 04:47 PM

Tipper you sound so mature, and so much like a developer of AssaultCube. Anyway welcome.

#3 arnyswart

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 05:14 PM

Hi tipper. On our other servers we normally would use RCON to auto authenticate moderators/admins in game.

Assault cube works well on a voting system. However ocasionally we get on to maps/settings that we do not want or players come in and abuse/cheat on the server. Moderators/admins can help with this as they can ensure the consistency of the game and make gameplay more enjoyable.

However we need a few so that the server is covered.

In renegade we have approx 40 mods and with all of our busy schedules we cannot ensure that there is 24 hour coverage. But those mods are training each other in detecting cheaters and are fantastic in making the server more enjoyable.

Those mods are also essential in maintaining our direction and keeping balance so no ones head gets too big. A different concept than what you are used too but a good one.

Going back to Hawaii. Arny.

PS. Welcome
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#4 tipperDES

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 05:44 PM

Hi Matt. Want the bad news? I am mature, in age anyway; mentally, well thats out to vote ;)

Hi arny.
The cheats in ac now are few tbh. We still get the odd map hack (easy to spot) and unfortunately, colour dependant auto aim which can be very hard to spot. I swap a suspect to the other team and see if he leaves the game to reset the bot. Sometimes the autoaim bots are really obvious, but a skilled player with a colour aimbot is very hard to detect.

Hmm, "all pigs are equal, but some pigs are more equal than others" George Orwell :)
One needs to be careful when differentiating between "big heads" and people with power. It's easy to get it all very confuzzeled when looking upwards at tender ages ;)
But sure, ac has some large heads and strangly enough some large brains to fill them. No doubt you have the same here and that is my chief concern; the here bit, not the large heads.
I would sincerly like to see some cooperation between Exodus (not a good name for a group that builds its projects on games made by others :) )and the dev team of ac.
Yes, i heard, Exodus likes to move fast and ac is fraught with good intentions and indecision......speed kills.
As for ac working well with the voting system, i dont agree. Most players are not old enough to vote responsibly. They have a voting age for a reason in the real world. It's very hard to get the team killers and the hud abusers off with the voting system. Over three quarters of ac players have limited grasp of English for a start. A vote to kick a player more often than not is out of spite for an accidental team kill or some other perceived offense. The system will work better when along side the kickvote is a menue for the reason the vote was called.
Right, I'll pick up my very heavy head and be on my way.
I'll be back :)
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#5 Dot`

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 06:38 PM

Hello I'm tipper|DES|, and welcome to Exodus! :)

#6 Cunin

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 07:46 PM

I'll probably reply more extensively later, as I have not much time atm, but as long as this game is free to be played for everyone, and as long as setting up a server is allowed for everyone, and also, as long as we pay the bills for our server, we will decide what's good and what's not for our own servers.

If you don't like something about this you can complain, sure, but that doesn't mean we need to listen to you.

Who we hire as admins in our own server is none of your business anyway, so please take your god-like attitude and go elsewhere.

#7 3663Nixon

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 07:58 PM

Of course we would welcome suggestions, but I feel like its a "comply with the council or die" situation. I hope I'm wrong, that's for sure.

I think there needs to be some clarification around acceptance and the AC community. We are very much our own community and we welcome anyone who wishes to spend time here. Cos we like each others company this is the place where we communicate. In the marketing sense it's always good to advertise anything that may be of use here to a wider audience (like more focussed forums for AC), however we are our own community and we're not seeking to be part of a bigger community, other than the links that should naturally form when you start up a game server.

The issue of CSS=AC is valid - there are going to be the purists and then there are going to be the generalists. I hope you can see that AC is more like CSS than it would be Team Fortress. Please keep in mind that we are advertising AC to a community that has been more or less born from C&C Renegade so at the moment we have to be generalists.

But anyhow, with all that aside, welcome to our humble forums and hope any fears you have of us running a few AC servers aren't justified! :)
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#8 Cunin

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 08:52 PM

Of course we would welcome suggestions, but I feel like its a "comply with the council or die" situation. I hope I'm wrong, that's for sure.

That's what I got too, hence my anger post.
If I was wrong then sorry, but I'm kinda sick of people that only contact us/me to dictate how we should run our shit, shit that they don't pay for.
And I don't mean criticism, but real dictating, like nixon well described it: "comply with the council or die".

#9 tipperDES

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 09:42 PM

Cunin.
Strange though it may seem, i came here with a friendly attitude in the hope that ac and Exodus might establish some productive links.
As far as i can see, I am the only person from the ac community to visit here. I'm sorry if you dont understand my humour, but if you read my posts without predjudice you might find them mildly ammusing ;)
I am not a member of the developement council and am not here as their representative.
I did try to forewarn you and your community of the likely reaction of the ac developement team and the established community when you first posted on our forums. I offered a helping hand and a possible link to the ac community through our irc network. I also tried to point you to some of the threads that could help explain why the devs have got to such a position. I don't recal telling you to "fuck off", ("so please take your god-like attitude and go elsewhere") Real unfriendly attitude from you cunin if i may say, while others in your community have attempted to make me welcome.

Nor do I care how you admin your servers as I am very unlikely to play on them and I'm not remotely interested in your project. Most people I have come accross in ac and here it seems, who are involved in coding for this type of project are bad tempered, i'll mannered and lacking in any social skills. Must be something in the nature of the beast ;) What i am interested in is the game ac and the people who play it, who by and large are a lot more friendly than the people who believe they run the game because they "own" a few servers.

If your members are happy being apart from the main ac community playing only on the Exodus servers then I will have wasted my time. If however even some of them would like some involvement with the clan base of the game, the clan and league matches, to develope their skills beyond and become involved in the wider ac community, then my name is tipper and I am a member of the clan DES and we would like to get to know you better and show you what a truely great game AssaultCube is.

PS, leave the bosses behind ;)
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#10 producepr

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 10:22 PM

Cunin.
Strange though it may seem, i came here with a friendly attitude in the hope that ac and Exodus might establish some productive links.


You sure do have a funny way of being friendly.

Please read the following with this in mind. "I do not represent the opinions or ideas of Exodus or its players."

You capture more flies with honey, than you do with vinegar. I have to say, you're first post put me off of even considering what you had to say. Most of the views you have expressed, are opinion, not fact. You can say all you want that AC is nothing like CSS, or any other game you can think of, but its opinion. I could describe it as being like Wolfenstein (I have never played that game TBH), and there's nothing anyone (short of the admins deleting my post) that could be done about it, because its opinion.

I hate multiple quote boxes in a single post, so I'll continue like this.

"Most people I have come accross in ac and here it seems, who are involved in coding for this type of project are bad tempered, i'll mannered and lacking in any social skills." - So basically, you're saying that the people who run this server are angry, immature kids who don't get out of the basement? Like I said earlier, you sure do have a funny way of being friendly.

"You have posted what is basicaly an add for admins for your ac servers. Exactly how do you decide who is and who isn't suitable? ac needs competant admins who know the game, it's players and are well known in the community. I dont think you have that atm." - Who are you to dictate whats good for AC and whats not? Gosh, you sound more like Crimson and TT the more you post. Being a moderator here, I can assure you that when we pick mods/admins for our respective game servers, more goes into it than just, "Hi, I want to be a mod." Procedures, which I can't describe here, are followed when considering an individual's application for mod/admin status.

Here's my final point. I've said it a few million times in Renegade, and I'll say it here. If you don't like the way our servers are run, then go play somewhere else. No one is forcing you to play here. If our regs decide they want to join a clan, or get more involved in the main AC community, they know where to go.
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#11 grant89uk

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 11:01 PM

The main impression I have gotten here is that this guy is angry with us because OUR community members are playing on OUR servers.

Like all our players should split up and populate other servers.
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#12 Daft

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 11:20 PM

The main impression I have gotten here is that this guy is angry with us because OUR community members are playing on OUR servers.

Like all our players should split up and populate other servers.


Exactly, this guy is just a stupid asshole, who thinks he can command us around because he has 'connections' which the developers or something. Buddy, you don't got shit on our server. Go eat a Dolphin.

Oh and big fucking deal we have a lot of people in our servers. Don't like it? Than back off, and leave us the fuck alone.

#13 tipperDES

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 11:24 PM

Please read the post at least before you comment. That way you may realise that i dont play on your servers, am not interested in the project and am here for what i assume are the ordinary players you call "regs".
Better still, read the welcome i gave your guys when they visited our forum.
And yes, i do have a strange sense of humour and probably a strange way of being friendly.
In fact, what i said is ac isn't like counterstrike. I don't know where you got the rest from? Of course it's an opinion, it couldn't very well be a fact could it?
"Who are you to dictate whats good for AC and whats not" Did I say that? On the other hand, if you ask me "who am i to say what does and doesn't make a good admin for ac" then all i can say is years of experience of playing the game and doing the job. What about you?

Is there any chance that someone with a sense of humour something akin to mine perhaps and a less hostile attitude would care to contribute to this thread?

Good contibution Matt. Very constructive.
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#14 gdfgdfgdgdgd

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 11:37 PM

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#15 tactic356

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 11:44 PM

i think people here would probably be happy to take advice/help out but you've kinda come off as saying that we need to do what you say and that's why people are pissed at you.
"Yep, freedom from programs that steal your private data. Freedom from programs that trash your battery. Freedom from porn. Yep, freedom. The times they are a changin', and some traditional PC folk feel like their world is slipping away. It is."-Steve Jobs about the iPad.
Just another reason to hate apple, they want to take away our porn...fucking bastards.

#16 gdfgdfgdgdgd

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 11:51 PM

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#17 Cunin

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Posted 12 August 2009 - 11:53 PM

i think people here would probably be happy to take advice/help out but you've kinda come off as saying that we need to do what you say and that's why people are pissed at you.

that kinda summarizes it

#18 newguy

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 12:18 AM

I'm not really sure what the deal here is, but I think there's a couple things worth mentioning.

One of the likely reasons why AC is described as 'like Counterstrike' is because this community's main game is Command and Conquer Renegade. Renegade is a very different animal in terms of online gaming so to effectively describe AC to members it was prudent to compare it to Counter Strike, which is an incredibly popular FPS that everyone knows and recognizes upon reading. It's a generalization to whet people's appetites and they'll realize the niche Assault Cube occupies in game.

About people posting complaints about AC on this forum, well that's kind of a no brainer, is it not? Exodus hosts the game on its own server, so it should be the one in charge of quality control. If problems arise that are dependent upon the game itself, and not the server, then it is still the business of this server to help people with their problems - referring people to forum after forum is tedious after all. After all, there is a forum for C&C Renegade that can solve technical issues, but many can be solved within this one.

Thanks for the pot-shot about the server not having quality people. Real smooth, and what a great way to have people consider your ideas. It's fair game for any community to ask for administrators or moderators within the game's core. In one breath, you've stated that AC needs competent people, and then said we don't have any. That's why they're asking for experienced people within AC.

Voting within servers is normal operation in games these days, and assuming your player-base are mainly composed of children and people who cannot speak English is a really unfair policy. If that's yours, that's cool as long as it stays in your own server. However, the basis of this community is treating people with respect, and equal opportunity for players. It's how things get done around here; even if it means slightly more moderation to limit abuse, it's well worth it. Each to their own.

As for the name 'Exodus' , it originates from a fracture in a previous community and the people involved did not see eye-to-eye with a lopsided, power structure that was focused on the few, and left. They most certainly won't agree with your point of view. It's a punchy attitude, that's for sure, but this place is populated with a scrappy bunch, and that ain't changing.

You have gotten a chilly reception from a few people because your posts are condescending, and not just towards this place, but towards players within your own game. That's what can really leave a bad taste in somebody's mouth.

Hopefully this can be solved amicably, and we can all be happy that Assault Cube has an excellent server and community dedicated to it, and the entire AC community can also be happy that the game has a few more new players that may have not otherwise touched the game at all.
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#19 tipperDES

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 01:55 AM

Mr Scary.
Nice post. Thank you.
Of course if Exodus is going to continue to run servers seperate to the main ac master server then it should have sole control over how they are supervised and by whome. I had hoped that this might change in time and some agreement over modded servers could be come to that enabled your servers to join the ac master server. As i said on the ac forums, I think ac could benefit from some of the mods that Exodus and others have developed.
As to my statement about the type of players that we currrently have on the servers, most are transient players who have downloaded the game because it has been described as like counterstrike and because it is free. It is also true that many do not have a good grasp of English and compared to the players who have been with the game for some time, are comparatively unskilled. I dont think i described them as "retards" ;) Ac probably has a player core of say 200 who play regularly, know the official maps and could be considered "skilled" players at some level. All i can suggest is you go and see for yourselves. Go and play a few games of CTF with some clan members on official maps. Then go and play counterstrike somewhere. Make the comparison for yourselves.

Much like any game/sport there are differing levels of skill within it's followers. But, the game survives because it has rules and the objectives of the game, and the skills required to compete at differing levels are clear. If this wasn't so, it might be considered okay to play football using a rugby ball on a tennis court. Okay, it's an extreem illustration, but you get my point.
Eventually, if "the governing body" do not state that this is not football but some other game, football would slowly die out in the form it was originally intended to be played.
This is in essence the problem ac is facing with servers that encourage "counterstrike" like play on poorly constructed maps that are filled with unskilled transient players.

Please bear in mind, that the developers of ac had a particular style of play in mind when making the game. Also, it is their game. They have been kind enough to give it to us, along with their time in continuing the games development. They own the intellectual rights to the game and the mappers who have made the default and accepted custom maps own the rights to those.
Yes, the game is open source, but if you had made and developed the game wouldn't you attempt to protect all that time you had invested in it.
The reaction from some of the community here bears out my point i think. It's your community and me, well I'm just some unwelcome stranger who doesn't know shit about it.
So, before people run down the developers, the "council" as it is called here and criticise their current approach to mods and servers that are outside their control, it is helpful to understand a bit of the history of the game and the community that have supported it throughout its life.

Now cunin has described my posts as offensive, they are certainly not meant to be. On the other hand, some of the comments i have received here are offensive and were meant to be.
I would like to know what it is i have written that is offensive. Some may not like what they perceive to be my attitude, but that is open to interpretation and from what i have read, it seems some who have responded to my posts have either not read then properly, or have concentrated on my manner rather than my words.

I have some points to make here and some objectives to reach if possible.

My interest is in the game ac and the players who support the game. I dont own any servers and tbh i would be more than happy if the developers owned all the servers. For me, this game isn't about who owns servers with particular mods and what clan or community runs them; it's about what and who is on them. It's about how the game is played, developing skills in new players, supporting the development of the game. Thats why I'm here. I would like to see Exodus contribute to the game as a whole, not just for their own servers, more like a clan than a seperate community that is intererested in the game and not just in it's own agenda and projects. We have just been through all that and in the end it was a pointless waste of time and effort for all concerned resulting in the devs having to spend their time looking to ways to protect their intellectual rights to the game rather then developing it further.
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#20 Ethenal

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Posted 13 August 2009 - 02:05 AM

 

I would like to see Exodus contribute to the game as a whole, not just for their own servers, more like a clan than a seperate community that is intererested in the game and not just in it's own agenda and projects. We have just been through all that and in the end it was a pointless waste of time and effort for all concerned resulting in the devs having to spend their time looking to ways to protect their intellectual rights to the game rather then developing it further.

And if you hadn't noticed, our attempts to contribute to the community were essentially shut down by Drakas for no particular reason as you saw.
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